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A question I've seen and heard many times. Often used to justify a sin.

People mistakenly seem to think that because Jesus' sacrifice on the cross was sufficient to clean our sins, we are forever saved regardless of what we do. His sacrifice wasn't meant to take away our sins so we could keep living a sinful life, walk away from His righteous ways and still somehow get to heaven. He sacrificed Himself for us to ensure that even if we sin, we can have the hope of being redeemed, of being forgiven and saved, if we accept our mistakes and ask forgiveness.

"He himself bore our sins" in his body on the cross, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; "by his wounds you have been healed." ~1 Peter 2:24

Nowadays, people want to be saved, but they don't want to repent. Repentance is: "To change one's mind. A change of heart, that involves turning away from sin" (Ezekiel 14:6)

"If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." ~ 1 John 1:9

God wants us to repent, to change. (Acts 3:19).
We confess because we admit and acknowledge we are sinning, and we repent because we know we have to change our ways. And when we change our hearts and mind about sin, a change in behavior will naturally result.

But the desire to repent is a result of the goodness of God.  (Romans 2:4), so without Him, we can't achieve anything (John 15:5). Don't try to change by your own strength, because you will fail and you'll be discouraged and disappointed. Pray and ask God for help and He will change your heart.

I don't need to change, He accepts me as I am.



True.

You come to Jesus just as you are. Unclean, broken, scarred etc. He will accept you, because He loves you. But once you meet Him, you won't be the same anymore. He will renew your heart. You will be born again.

People seem to forget that if they truly accept Jesus, they will let Him work on their lives; they will have a desire of 'walking away from sin' and pursuing a godly life. If you accept Christ, but still want to leave your life unchanged, you're not actually accepting Him into your life and heart. You're just accepting the idea of believing in Him.

Believing in Jesus is not just 'knowing' He exists. Even devils believe (James 2:19) and they won't get to heaven.  Believing in Jesus implies something much more than that.

Believing means: to have faith, confidence, and trust. We must believe that He IS (Hebrews 11:6), He is the Alpha and Omega, the Almighty (Revelation 1:8) The great I AM (Exodus 3:14). He is all powerful and He can clean what's unclean, He can fix what's broken, and He can heal any wound.

When you get to know Jesus, you know the wonderful things He can do in your life. And you know He can change your life for the better and you'll want that change.

God wants us to go to Him (Matthew 11:28), because He wants to give us a new spirit and heart.
"I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh." ~ Ezekiel 36:26

It's not in my control



Our sinful nature hates everything that has to do with God and His perfect ways. We are in a constant fight. While we're trying to get closer to Him, our nature is trying to go the other way.

"For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish." ~ Galatians 5:17

We have to be able to control that sinful nature. How? Starving it.
If we don't feed our nature with sinful actions, it won't have the strength to control us.

It's not our fault that we are born with a sinful nature, but we are responsible for the actions we take with it. We have to make a decision: to sin, or not to sin. We have to choose if we want to be saved or not.

So the excuse of: "It's not my fault, why would He send me to hell for something I can't control?" is invalid!  (and erroneous)

You are not in control of how, when, where, etc. you're born, but only you have the control of choosing what you want to do with your life. You can take the wheel or let sin drive for you.

"So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh" ~ Galatians 5:16

We can choose to walk in the Spirit. We can choose to let God change us, giving us a new spirit and a new heart. We can choose to accept His sacrifice and be dead to sin. (Romans 6:5-11). You have the control to make that choice.

God doesn't take away our salvation; we give it up, with our actions.
People that get arrested often get angry and take grudges with the cops that imprisoned them. It's not the cop's fault. They're behind bars because they broke the law. They chose to give up their freedom. Likewise, it's not God's fault, it's ours. He did everything that was on His power so we could be saved (He did what we could not do); now it's our turn to accept that salvation.

The right question should be: why would I choose the lake of fire instead of a loving God?

What do you love more, your sins or God? God loves us and because of that, He will respect our decision. He won't force the gift of salvation (Ephesians 2:8) on us.
“For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.” ~ 1 Timothy 2:3-4

This is an old short piece I wrote months ago. I finally decided to submitted.

It's short and simple.

Don’t comment if you’re gonna be rude and disrespectful.

God bless :heart:




Edit:



:bulletred: This is My Reply to Response - Nilopher

(just click it to see it)
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:iconpoopturds:
poopturds Featured By Owner Jan 7, 2015  Student Traditional Artist
M father did some research though and he found that hell is reserved for the devil and the false prophet though.
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:iconnilopher:
Nilopher Featured By Owner Jan 9, 2015  Hobbyist General Artist

 Yes, that’s true. The devil and the false prophets will be casted into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:10).
But they are not the only ones:  1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Matthew 25:44-46, Revelation 21:8

“And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.” ~ Revelation 20:15

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:iconpoopturds:
poopturds Featured By Owner Jan 9, 2015  Student Traditional Artist
I'm just kinda confused because my dad said that they will die, but they won't go to hell, God will just kill them, and they'll poof into nothing. I don't really know what he researched so i can't really prove what he researched was right at the moment, but oh well. Whatever the bible says.
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:iconaaaaceace:
aaaaceace Featured By Owner Sep 9, 2014
God may love us but he still sends people to a burning lake of fire for all eternity because they did some petty sins.
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:iconnilopher:
Nilopher Featured By Owner Sep 12, 2014  Hobbyist General Artist
The lake of fire is not for all eternity. The wicked are promised death (Romans 6:23) not eternal life (:  

Here's an article I wrote about that: nilopher.deviantart.com/art/He…
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:iconaaaaceace:
aaaaceace Featured By Owner Sep 18, 2014
That is still incredibly cruel of him.
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:iconnilopher:
Nilopher Featured By Owner Sep 18, 2014  Hobbyist General Artist
ok, so you would prefer Him to let us live in pain and destroy each other and this earth instead of destroying sin forever...
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:iconaaaaceace:
aaaaceace Featured By Owner Sep 18, 2014
Or he could not send people to burn in hell for thousands of years just so he could kill them all. He is God, he could find a more merciful way for them to earn forgiveness.   
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:iconnilopher:
Nilopher Featured By Owner Sep 19, 2014  Hobbyist General Artist
"Or he could not send people to burn in hell for thousands of years just so he could kill them all."

He doesn’t send people anywhere, not only because hell is not a place, also because we have the right to choose between life and death.

Also is impossible for a person to burn in hell for thousands of years because humans don’t live that long, especially if they are being consumed and destroyed by God’s holy fire.

"He is God, he could find a more merciful way for them to earn forgiveness."

We can do nothing to earn forgiveness. 
But to be forgiven we just have to wholeheartedly ask for forgiveness. We don’t deserve it but He forgives us anyway. How is that not merciful? We commit a sin, we are sorry, we truly repent and ask Him to forgive us and He does. But if we dont ask for forgiveness then there is nothing He can do, He wont force us to go to Him.

He endured suffering (Hebrews 13:12) and died for us, so we could have a second chance of a sinless life (john 3:16). He taught us His ways. He is giving us time to seek Him and be saved because He doesn’t want us to perish. 

"The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." ~2 Peter 3:9

How is that not merciful?
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:iconaaaaceace:
aaaaceace Featured By Owner Sep 19, 2014
Life is not as simple as black and white. Also God created hell as a means to torture people who displease him, according to your beliefs. There fore he chose to torture and murder people he thinks are undesirables by burning them in a holy fire. Want to guess what holicost means?  
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:iconnilopher:
Nilopher Featured By Owner Sep 19, 2014  Hobbyist General Artist

According to my beliefs, according to God’s word God didn’t create a hell. There is no hell under our feet, and there are no people burning or being tortured anywhere right now. I’ve been telling you this since the beginning of this conversation but you are choosing to ignore it to back up your claims of an unmerciful God.  


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(1 Reply)
:iconjayceel:
Jayceel Featured By Owner May 19, 2014   Traditional Artist
the way I always saw it was Jesus gave us a way to get the way to heaven we take or we leave it, we leave it  satan drags us down there...(blunt terms I know its more complicated than that but I'm a little too tired right now)
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:iconbraveswordtactitian:
BraveSwordTactitian Featured By Owner Aug 13, 2013
"If God loves me then why would He send me to Hell?"

Because he isn't a loving God. There is no way around it. Hell is not a place of love; it is a place of eternal suffering. An all-loving and merciful being would never send any living soul into a hell, even the devil itself, because it's nothing more than useless punishment. Suffering for suffering's sake. Hell is not love. If your god created it then he is not love.
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:iconnilopher:
Nilopher Featured By Owner Aug 13, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
It’s easy to accommodate love to what we want it to be. According to us, because God is love He can’t do this or that. If God doesn’t agree with our lifestyle surely He is not a loving God because a loving God would let me be happy whatever way I want.  

Yes, God is love (1 John 4:8), but He is also consuming fire (Hebrews 12:29). He is holy and because of that He will cleanse the earth from sin. When that time comes sin will be eradicated from the universe, those who don’t repent will have everlasting death and those who repent will have everlasting life. There’s a reaction to every action. God love is unconditional (Romans 5:8), and eternal (Psalm 136:1). His love is unchanging and He will not love less those who perish in the lake of fire.


Also, my view on hell is not the one I think you’re referring to. God hasn’t “created” a hell, nor will it burn forever. The same question applies: ‘would a loving God watch part of His creation burning forever in pain?’ No. He promised eternal life to those who repent; and logically those who don’t repent will receive eternal death.  


These are my views of hell:

I don’t know where the eternal hell comes from, but it’s not biblical. The eternal fire burns as long as there’s something to burn, the fire is eternal but the materials that are burning (cities like Edom, Sodom and Gomorrah, the wicked people, Satan and His angels) are not eternal. So the eternal fire will stop burning when it finishes its mission: to destroy sin.
Malachi 4:1-3 says: That will leave them neither root nor branch, they shall be ashes
“What do ye imagine against the LORD? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time.~ Nahum 1:9
Revelation 22:3 says: there shall be no more curse.
And if you look in Revelation. Hell, that is the Lake of fire (Revelation 20:15) will be on top of the earth. (Revelation 20:9). How can it burn forever if is in this earth that we will live after sin is destroyed? (Revelation 21:1-5).
No, the un-saved won’t burn forever. Because they won’t receive God’s gift of eternal life. “The wages of sin is death. But the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord”~Romans 6:23.
If they burn forever, that means they’ll live forever, meaning that they will also receive eternal life, a gift that the bible clearly says will be only for those who go to heaven.

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:iconaaaaceace:
aaaaceace Featured By Owner Sep 13, 2014
Considering that according to some Christians that all none Christians go to hell for eternity no matter how good they are, then in that case God is an evil being and we should be worshiping Satan as a rebel against a tyrant. However, if I am right and God is willing to forgive the sins of the dead so long as they are sorry for their sins then he is a good, caring, and loving God.   
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:iconnilopher:
Nilopher Featured By Owner Sep 13, 2014  Hobbyist General Artist

Yes, God is willing to forgive everyone’s sins as long as they wholeheartedly ask for forgiveness. It doesn’t matter if they are believers or non-believers. God’s grace and forgiveness is offered to all.  

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:iconaaaaceace:
aaaaceace Featured By Owner Sep 21, 2014
In that case everyone will get into heaven.
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:iconricexyummy:
riceXyummy Featured By Owner May 4, 2014  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Amen!!
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:iconnilopher:
Nilopher Featured By Owner May 5, 2014  Hobbyist General Artist
:) :tighthug:
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:iconnaruhinalover3:
naruhinalover3 Featured By Owner May 18, 2013  Hobbyist Writer
This changes the way I think as a Christian I always gets questions like this.This really gives me something to think about
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:icontommyboywood:
tommyboywood Featured By Owner Mar 11, 2013  Hobbyist Writer
this too is nicely researched and good use of the Scriptures is made. in Reveleation 20:14 and again at Revelatin 21:8, John (under inspiration) states clearly what the "lake of fire" means, or symbolizes. it is the "second death." in other words, those who are judged as irreformable by God's appointed judge, Jesus, will never have the privilege of enjoying life again for all eternity. they will remain forever dead, the dust of the ground (Genesis 3:19; Eccleiastes 9:5-10; John 11:11-14). in Jesus' day the greek word mistranslated as hell in many Bibles is actually hades, which root definaition is simply "the abode of the dead." it is a SYMBOLIC place to which all the dead go, awaiting a future resurrection. the word mistranslated as "hellfire" in many Bibles is actually the hebrew word "Gehenna" or "valley of Hinnom." this was a real place located outside of Jerusalem that was used as the city garbage dump, and refuse there was burned with fire and sulphur. sometimes, the bodies of dead, heinous criminals were thrown there to symbolize their unworthiness of a resurrection. Jesus frequently used illustrations in his teaching, things the people of his day were familiar with. hence, he used Gehenna as a SYMBOL of everlasting death, from which no resurrection is possible. the idea that the God of love (1 John 4:8) would burn, torture, or torment souls or bodies in everlasting fire is clearly a teaching of the devil, and is slanderous and blasphemous of our Creator
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:iconnilopher:
Nilopher Featured By Owner Mar 29, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
Sorry for this late reply ^^;

Thanks for reading and for the comment :tighthug: :nod: Yes, I also think that an eternal hell would immortalize sin in the universe, and that wouldn't make sense with Jesus' sacrifice. :) I was doing an article about hell and my laptop crashed jaja and it was lost :/

God bless :heart:
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:icontommyboywood:
tommyboywood Featured By Owner Mar 29, 2013  Hobbyist Writer
keep up the good work!
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:iconbrisingr-arget:
Brisingr-Arget Featured By Owner Feb 15, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
Sorry for the double post, but this is a question that I kep asking, mostly to myself and my mom.

Is belief in God essential? Does lack of belief guarantee damnation?

Of these, faith, hope, and love, the greatest is love. I forget from which part of the Bible this is.

Basically, I keep interpreting this as as long as one truly loves (to the Greeks, this word is Agape) and acts on that love, then does whether one believes in God or not truly matter?

I keep contemplating these things. Not everyone is exactly willing to believe in God and I've met a few. One is my classmate.

But I find no correlation between belief in a divine being and doing the right thing. What I do find, however, is that people do noble things (even atheists) for the sake of an ideal they believe in. So while they may not have faith in God, they have faith in the ideal.

This is something I'd like to discuss with you, as, well, my own faith is shaky at the moment.
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:iconnilopher:
Nilopher Featured By Owner Feb 15, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
No worries for the double post, I’ll answer both here ^^

Thanks for the comment and for reading. :tighthug:

~~Is belief in God essential? Does lack of belief guarantee damnation?~~

God is the only way to heaven, if we can’t love Him now how we will be able to love Him in heaven? But, keep in mind that “not believing” is not equal to damnation and “believing” is not equal to salvation.
Take for example people living before Jesus was born, people that never in their life heard about Him. Are they damned because of their lack of belief? No.

For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.~ Romans 2:12-16

~~Basically, I keep interpreting this as as long as one truly loves (to the Greeks, this word is Agape) and acts on that love, then does whether one believes in God or not truly matter? ~~

Yes, Agape is the word used in the bible to represent the unconditional love God has for us and expects us to have for one another. If we love with Agape, we’re bound to do righteous things, but what is love?

He who does not love does not know God, for God is love.~1 John 4:8

If we truly love with Agape, we are acting according to Him regardless if we are Christians or not.

~~But I find no correlation between belief in a divine being and doing the right thing. What I do find, however, is that people do noble things (even atheists) for the sake of an ideal they believe in. So while they may not have faith in God, they have faith in the ideal.~~

Yes, people can do the right thing without knowing or believing in God. Why? Because He has nothing to do with it? No. We were created in His image and although now we’re corroded with sin, there’s still a part in every one of us that looks for is rightful place. <-- I’m not sure how to put that in other words, but what I mean is that God breathed His spirit (breath of life) in every one of us to give us life (Genesis 2:7). We were created to be righteous, we’re messed up with sin, but we can still be righteous (Matthew 5:48) and deep down we want to be righteous. It was intended like that in the beginning.

There are non-believers that act better than some Christians and vice versa.

I hope you can understand me...english is not my first language ^^;

God bless ^^
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:iconbrisingr-arget:
Brisingr-Arget Featured By Owner Feb 16, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
Thank you, so much. This is reassuring for me. I'm glad I asked.

You do well even if it is not your first language :D

God bless.
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:iconbrisingr-arget:
Brisingr-Arget Featured By Owner Feb 15, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
It is so heartening to see such well-reasoned arguments like these.

I thank you for posting this.
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:iconstickfigureparadise:
stickfigureparadise Featured By Owner Feb 12, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
I noticed something in your debate with chimpso. He mentions being annoyed at your constant references to Scripture and later asks you why you appear to know what God says/wants. I appreciate that you use the verses so consistently because they answer that question right there.
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:iconnilopher:
Nilopher Featured By Owner Feb 15, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
^^ :tighthug:
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:icondemensionsofinsanity:
DemensionsOfInsanity Featured By Owner Sep 13, 2012  Hobbyist Writer
I really need some advice.

Last year my girlfriend started believing in God and started going to church with me and my family, then about a month later her best friend since kindergarden was killed when he hit a moose on the highway; and now she HATES God for taking him away from her before his time.
Nothing I say has helped her see things differently. I don't want to lose her to Satan but I'm simply not able to say anything to change her mind at all.
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:iconlightpony:
LightPony Featured By Owner Sep 14, 2012
Sorry for the double post, but I must add this:

People usually say someone went too soon. But I ask: with how many years people wish to die? 55? 67? 89?

It doesn't matter if you're old or young: most people fear death. Most people don't wish to die. And that is the truth. Because death separate us from those we love. Because death is the one line nobody ever crossed and returned...

Nobody except Jesus, that is. Jesus conquered death. And by Jesus we will also conquer death. This is why we Christians don't have to fear death, because we know it isn't the ending... but the beginning of something better.
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:icondemensionsofinsanity:
DemensionsOfInsanity Featured By Owner Sep 14, 2012  Hobbyist Writer
well it's just that she actually told me that she'd "rather go to hell then worship a God that killed her best friend"
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:iconlightpony:
LightPony Featured By Owner Sep 14, 2012
Does she have a DA? If yes, you could note me and I may try to help her.

If she doesn't, here is a good thing to ask her: why does she think that God killed her friend?

There is more than a billion people in the world. And there is an almost uncountable number of people who died before him. And a lot more who will die after him. Why would God kill a specific person between all of them?

Most probably wouldn't. God knows all, he knows when each of us is going to die. Why does he let it happen, then? I see two options:

A) He knows, but he allows it for free will. We know that this life is temporary, and if this is the reason that shows us how much he is just and truly love us.

Or B) He knows, and he decides when we are going to die. If this is the reason... that shows us how much he is just and truly love us. Why? Try to imagine setting the life expectancy for every being in the world. Would we give everyone one hundred years? Ten years? One thousand years?

If B is true, that means he gives us the life time we actually need. Because he knows when we will die, then he would also know how much life we actually need.

I hope this helps you. ^^ God bless.
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:icondemensionsofinsanity:
DemensionsOfInsanity Featured By Owner Sep 14, 2012  Hobbyist Writer
yeah she has a dA, it's [link] I'm just a bit nervous that getting someone else involved will get her mad at me because she DOES NOT like to talk about God or the accident for that matter, she dismisses every attempt I've made to talk to her about it :\
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:iconlightpony:
LightPony Featured By Owner Sep 14, 2012
How much time has been since it happened?
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:icondemensionsofinsanity:
DemensionsOfInsanity Featured By Owner Sep 14, 2012  Hobbyist Writer
it happened last August
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:iconlightpony:
LightPony Featured By Owner Sep 15, 2012
Almost a year, then.

I thought about what you said... and you are right. If I, a complete stranger, appear from nowhere to talk about God she would only get angrier.

However, if she were to talk to me... that would be different. Listen, tell her that you understand that her wound is still open. Tell her that you understand that she must be angry with God... and then tell her that someone is offering himself to do God's defense (even through he doesn't need it). Ask her to note me, then.

Explain to her that this person is a stranger and that our conversation won't be shared with anybody, even yourself if she wishes. Explain to her that this person is not a pastor, a priest or teology professor, but just a TI technician with conviction on the one he follows.

I won't lie: I never saw myself as someone with a preaching talent. However I do stand for what I believe is right, and in this situation I think I can at least show her some things she may be missing.
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:iconlightpony:
LightPony Featured By Owner Sep 14, 2012
Hello, I hope this can helps.

First, it is incredible painful to lose someone you love. I won't lie to say I understand the pain: God was very merciful with me by keeping all those I love near me.

But I can imagine it: when my grandmother lost her husband, taking into account they were together for over twenty years, sleeping together in the same house... it was tough.

Still, my grandmother told me that one of his last words were: "The Lord is calling me." On his funeral, she also told me: "The Lord took him with him."

Death is natural for our bodies. All of us are going to die at one point. However, our souls are different. When we die, we will return to God and we will have our judgement.

There is no 'too soon' or 'too late' for God. God knows the final hour of every being that exists. I won't lie: I want all those I love to have very long lives. But I admit that this wish is selfish on my part: I want them to stay near me because I love them, because I know that life in Heaven is far better than life in Earth. I also worry about their faith... but I accept that God judgement is perfect.

When we are hurt, we usually get bitter. We try to push everyone aside from us... especially the one who always stand by us, God. That is a mistake. God is the only being who is always with us. God through Jesus Christ saved all of us, and He promised to give us support on our hardest times.

Many people say that only time heal such wounds. That is kind of true: time helps softening the blow... but the scar remains. God however can fully heal it. Because when you truly accept God as supreme, you see that his wish is just.

Also while he may be gone, the memories she had with him will live together. And when they met in the afterlife, he, alongside all of our departed ones will be waiting, ready to see Jesus second coming.

I hope this can help you. God bless.
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:iconcalmocean:
CalmOcean Featured By Owner Aug 17, 2012  Hobbyist General Artist
I love it, wonderfully written.
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:iconnilopher:
Nilopher Featured By Owner Aug 18, 2012  Hobbyist General Artist
Thanks :tighthug: all glory to God. ^^
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:icontesm:
TESM Featured By Owner Jul 8, 2012  Hobbyist Writer
It's pretty good.

I was wondering, however, how you mean "sinful nature" which hates everything from God. Are you speaking specifically of the flesh or of our whole nature, body and soul? For if the soul truly hated God how could it receive it? And by this I also imply that if by grace Christ is received and our soul transformed then is it the case we have a new soul (or a transformed soul)?

Even in Wisdom it says "even in the image of his own nature he fashioned us." I think a lot depends on how you define "sinful nature" here.

If we are to say Original Sin broke human nature, then those who did not yet exist were not created by God in his own nature (or else, why would they hate everything about Him?). Yet I believe that all men, in their heart of hearts, seek God for (as Augustine says) "our hearts are restles until they rest in you."


I know it's a lot of questions already so I'll stop there.
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:iconnilopher:
Nilopher Featured By Owner Jul 9, 2012  Hobbyist General Artist
Thank you. :hug:

Questions are good, they help me to improve ^^ so make all the questions you want.

My concept of soul is different than yours, while you believe (correct me if I’m wrong) that we have a soul, I believe we are a “living soul”. But my explanation applies to both concepts.

~~“…How you mean "sinful nature" which hates everything from God. Are you speaking specifically of the flesh or of our whole nature, body and soul?”~~

I am speaking of our whole nature, because when I speak about nature I’m not referring to our bodies or (in your case) bodies and souls. (I refer to nature as in: sinful nature + spiritual nature = human nature). [But yes, following your concept of soul it would mean the flesh].

This is what I mean when I talk about our natures:
The human nature in a beginning was composed solely of a spiritual nature, because God created us ‘ in His own image’ (Genesis 1:27) and breathed into us the breath of life (Genesis 2:7) [breath of life = ruach = spirit]. [In the beginning: human nature = spiritual nature]

After our first parents sinned, our human nature split in two: it was then composed of a spiritual nature by creation and a sinful nature because of their disobedience.

Because of that even though we have a spiritual nature by default we all inherited the sinful nature (Psalm 51:5, Romans 5:12).

~~“For if the soul truly hated God how could it receive it?”~~

Because our soul has both natures. Our souls can’t receive God if we please our sinful nature and reject our spiritual nature, we can’t serve two masters (Matthew 6:24), therefore we can’t chose to “feed” both natures. But we are able to receive God if we chose to walk by the spirit. What “feeds” the spiritual nature “starves” the sinful nature.

“The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.~ Galatians 6:8

~~“And by this I also imply that if by grace Christ is received and our soul transformed then is it the case we have a new soul (or a transformed soul)?”~~

I believe when we receive Christ our souls are transformed (Romans 12:2, 2 Corinthians 3:16-18). Purified (1 Peter 1:22-23).

Kinda like preparing us for the final transformation (1 Corinthians 15:51-53, Philippians 3:20-21). When (I believe) our ‘sinful nature’ will be destroyed. And the saved (those who have their names in the book of life) will be restored to the original, sinless and perfect state we lost because of sin.

~~“If we are to say Original Sin broke human nature, then those who did not yet exist were not created by God in his own nature (or else, why would they hate everything about Him?).”~~

We “inherit” our natures. God created Adam and Even in His image; giving them a spiritual nature therefore all their descendants have a spiritual nature too. But because they sinned they acquired a sinful nature and we all inherited it. Like it says in the video of G.O.S.P.E.L.– a moving rhyme: “That sin seed spread through our souls’ genome.”

Some people hate everything that has to do about God because their natures are clashing (like it happens with everyone else, Galatians 5:17), but in them the sinful nature is winning.

~~“Yet I believe that all men, in their heart of hearts, seek God for (as Augustine says) "our hearts are restless until they rest in you."”~~

I believe this too.

God bless and thank you for reading! :heart:
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TESM Featured By Owner Jul 13, 2012  Hobbyist Writer
You'll have to forgive me, because as a philosopher a lot of this makes little sense, not because I don't understand but because I feel like you're making a lot of claims that don't mix well.

My concept of soul is different than yours, while you believe (correct me if I’m wrong) that we have a soul, I believe we are a “living soul”. But my explanation applies to both concepts.

Well, I think you're wrong on two fronts.

Adding "living" to soul is redundant because a "soul" is by definition the "principle of life" in a thing.

In this way I have no idea how you are defining my concept of soul.

I am speaking of our whole nature, because when I speak about nature I’m not referring to our bodies or (in your case) bodies and souls. (I refer to nature as in: sinful nature + spiritual nature = human nature). [But yes, following your concept of soul it would mean the flesh].

Well, to start, it's not my concept of soul your using (that I know of) but the way you describe it I'm certain you're not correct about my conception.

In this case it is also not helpful to introduce terms like "nature" which have a whole ton of backstory and weight to them and then to make up categories and natures without carefully describing them.

For example, a nature must subsist in something, but unless your Jesus who was fully human and divine, then you cannot have two natures subsist. Your argument would also mean that the "sinful nature" is always mistaken and that the "spiritual nature" is never mistaken--at least this is what your concept of nature will lead to. This makes it rather difficult, because then you must deny that the spirit can never be mistaken.

It is also not explained how these two natures interact within us. It is more logical and consistent to say that we have a spiritual nature which, because it lives in a state of sin, can be corrupted or confused but, because it exists (for existence is good) it also can come to knowedge of God and goodness.

The human nature in a beginning was composed solely of a spiritual nature, because God created us ‘ in His own image’ (Genesis 1:27) and breathed into us the breath of life (Genesis 2:7) [breath of life = ruach = spirit]. [In the beginning: human nature = spiritual nature]

Ay. No no no. If this was the case then Adam and Eve could not have sinned. If your answer here is correct then Adam and Eve were created with purely a spiritual nature that should have been incapable of sin.

This conception, or the inplications of what you say, would deny free will eventually. I guarantee it.

After our first parents sinned, our human nature split in two: it was then composed of a spiritual nature by creation and a sinful nature because of their disobedience.

Again, sin is willful disobedience of God. If Adam and Eve sinned before that had the two natures you proclaim then they sinned by virtue of their "spiritual nature."

Our souls can’t receive God if we please our sinful nature and reject our spiritual nature, we can’t serve two masters (Matthew 6:24), therefore we can’t chose to “feed” both natures. But we are able to receive God if we chose to walk by the spirit. What “feeds” the spiritual nature “starves” the sinful nature.

That's slightly misued as a quote.

The "two masters" aren't nature, but rather it is "creation" or "creator" are the two masters. When we serve the ends of creation as our (ultimate) masters this is to deny God--but do not confuse that for any human masters for God gave us priests, prophets and kings to lead us as masters (and shepherds who lead us to Him). Likewise we must give to Caesar what is his. But when we serve the Creator he also gives us all of creation.

Our souls can’t receive God if we please our sinful nature and reject our spiritual nature, we can’t serve two masters (Matthew 6:24), therefore we can’t chose to “feed” both natures. But we are able to receive God if we chose to walk by the spirit. What “feeds” the spiritual nature “starves” the sinful nature.

See, but that "destuction of nature" carries two connotations:

1) God creates our sinful nature.
2) Because for God to destroy completely he must create it first.

But why must this transformation "destory." The Old World falls away to make way for the New Age. It is not the destruction of evil, for evil is not a thing, but the overwhelming transformation and perfection of Goodness, for "they will need no lamps nor light from the sun [both good things] for they shall stand before light itself."



We “inherit” our natures. God created Adam and Even in His image; giving them a spiritual nature therefore all their descendants have a spiritual nature too. But because they sinned they acquired a sinful nature and we all inherited it.


My points above apply to this as well.



Some people hate everything that has to do about God because their natures are clashing (like it happens with everyone else, Galatians 5:17), but in them the sinful nature is winning.


Well, some people hate God because His children have 'defamed His name' as well. We can't be too sure it's just their indulgence to sin but rather the sin of the faithful that makes others hate God. Philosophy and theology and how we apply it hold this power as well.



I hope this helps,
M
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:iconnilopher:
Nilopher Featured By Owner Jul 15, 2012  Hobbyist General Artist
~~"Well, I think you're wrong on two fronts.

Adding "living" to soul is redundant because a "soul" is by definition the "principle of life" in a thing."~~


I just added “living” to soul to quote the bible. I don’t think quoting the bible is redundant...

“And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.~ Genesis 2:7

And to me the “principle of life” it’s not the soul.

~~"In this way I have no idea how you are defining my concept of soul.

Well, to start, it's not my concept of soul your using (that I know of) but the way you describe it I'm certain you're not correct about my conception."~~


That’s why I wrote: “correct me if I am wrong”, because I don’t know what your concept of soul is, but I want to know. ^^

~~"For example, a nature must subsist in something, but unless your Jesus who was fully human and divine, then you cannot have two natures subsist."~~

I think the problem here is our definition of “nature”. (In my case my definition is wrong). I was using the word “nature” because we’re born with it. Also I was calling them natures, because sin doesn’t come from God and I didn’t want to mix that with The Spirit. But that was my mistake, so I have to clarify what I said. (Sometimes I think in Spanish and write in English and when I translate things in my mind I end up saying something else ^^; ).

I will correct my words by saying: our human nature consist of spiritual attributes and a sinful degradation. I think that’s closer to what I wanted to say. In other words our human nature is degraded.

~~"Your argument would also mean that the "sinful nature" is always mistaken and that the "spiritual nature" is never mistaken--at least this is what your concept of nature will lead to. This makes it rather difficult, because then you must deny that the spirit can never be mistaken."~~

As I said before, I used the term nature incorrectly. According to my concept of human nature, sin will “lead” us stray but the spiritual attribute that specifically come from God will always “try” to “lead” us to the right path.

[I say “spiritual attributes that come from God”, because I’m aware of the “evil spirits” (Acts 19:13)and I'm not referring to them. And I know that sin doesn’t exactly “lead” us anywhere—unless we choose it—because sin is not a person, but I hope you understand what I want to say. If you don’t, tell me so I can look for more appropriate words ]

~~"It is also not explained how these two natures interact within us."~~

'The Image of God in us human beings was badly marred at the fall, but not completely obliterated.', Because of the fall and the damage sin caused we may have sinful tendencies, but because we were created in God’s image (even though this likeness is no longer perfect) we can also have tendencies towards good.

~~"Again, sin is willful disobedience of God. If Adam and Eve sinned before that had the two natures you proclaim then they sinned by virtue of their "spiritual nature."~~

I agree in the part of sin. Adam and Eve sinned and their human nature changed.

~~"That's slightly misued as a quote.

The "two masters" aren't nature, but rather it is "creation" or "creator" are the two masters."~~


I know that. I wasn’t referring to nature when I used it. Just like we can’t serve two masters, we can’t please our sinful “desires” and at the same time fully please The Spirit.

~~"See, but that "destruction of nature" carries two connotations:

1) God creates our sinful nature.
2) Because for God to destroy completely he must create it first.

But why must this transformation "destory." The Old World falls away to make way for the New Age. It is not the destruction of evil, for evil is not a thing, but the overwhelming transformation and perfection of Goodness, for "they will need no lamps nor light from the sun [both good things] for they shall stand before light itself."~~


In our transformation we will be cleansed from sin. Our human nature will be sinless again.
The transformation will destroy sin. Like an extinction. If you cut something from the roots leaving nothing behind, that thing will be no more.

By eradicating Satan and the sinners that never repented [He did create humans and angles], He is “cutting” the roots.

~~"I hope this helps,"~~

Yes! Thank you! This will help me to edit this and clear some points. I’ll have to change the word “nature” for something more fitting... as I’ve said to others, I sometimes forget people can’t read my mind ^^ and while I know what I want to say they think of something else.
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:icontesm:
TESM Featured By Owner Jul 21, 2012  Hobbyist Writer
I just added “living” to soul to quote the bible. I don’t think quoting the bible is redundant...

I don't think quoting Scripture is redundant, but I do think that for the purposes of talking about the soul either A) you were adding a complexity that wasn't needed or B) making the subject more confusing.


And to me the “principle of life” it’s not the soul.


So if the soul is the "breath of life" how is it not also the "principle of life"?

Or, what is the soul for you?



I will correct my words by saying: our human nature consist of spiritual attributes and a sinful degradation. I think that’s closer to what I wanted to say. In other words our human nature is degraded.


This is better. But, then we must go a step further. In what manner are we degraded? That is to ask a second question. What is man worth?


By eradicating Satan and the sinners that never repented [He did create humans and angles], He is “cutting” the roots.


So here's a tricky question: if hell exists, and I believe it does, does God still love those in hell because it exists, or does hell simply mean all being is "obliterated"?

But if God destorys being, doesn't that mean that he created that which was intended as good and destoryed it? Will hell exist after the Last Day?

This is why I will write about hell soon. It's a rich and deep topic that needs a lot of attention, just as heaven does.


Yes! Thank you! This will help me to edit this and clear some points. I’ll have to change the word “nature” for something more fitting... as I’ve said to others, I sometimes forget people can’t read my mind ^^ and while I know what I want to say they think of something else.

You're welcome. I know how difficult it is to write in another language since I'm studying Spanish in Guatemala right now myself.

But I've also studied quite a bit of philosophy and some theology, among other things, and the topic of the soul is something I have studied in particular. I hope you can take my comments to heart.
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:iconnilopher:
Nilopher Featured By Owner Jul 24, 2012  Hobbyist General Artist
I'm really sorry for this late reply. I don't have a laptop right now.

~~“I don't think quoting Scripture is redundant, but I do think that for the purposes of talking about the soul either A) you were adding a complexity that wasn't needed or B) making the subject more confusing.”~~

Or C) simply quoting scripture.
Why the term “living soul” should be considered a complexity or something to cause confusion?

~~“So if the soul is the "breath of life" how is it not also the "principle of life"?”

How can something perishable be the principle of life?

The breath of life is the ‘principle of life’ but the soul is not the breath of life. The breath of life is the spirit God breathed into us (Genesis 2:7, Genesis 7:22). And when the spirit departs the person dies (Psalm 146:4). The principle of life is the spirit not the soul.

~~“Or, what is the soul for you?”~~

“And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.”~1 Corinthians 15:45

“And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.~ Genesis 2:7

We are a soul. [I know it goes deeper than this, but a soul is not something we have].

What is the soul for you?

~~“This is better. But, then we must go a step further. In what manner are we degraded? That is to ask a second question. What is man worth?”~~

Because of sin our bodies decay; there is pain, sickness and death (the list goes on). None of that existed before the fall. That’s how we are degraded; we are no longer pure. We had been “tainted” with sin.

In God’s eyes our degradation doesn’t estimate our worth. Jesus died for us. He believed (and still believes) we were worth it. We are invaluable to Him.

~~“So here's a tricky question: if hell exists, and I believe it does, does God still love those in hell because it exists, or does hell simply mean all being is "obliterated"?”~~

Our belief in hell differs. I don’t believe it exists right now nor I believe it will exist forever, but I know it will exist.

Does God loves (or will still love) those in hell?

Yes. He doesn’t love them because of hell’s existence or because they exist there, but because He is love (1 John 4:8). It doesn’t matter where we are or what we do, He will still love us. His love is everlasting. It’s not His fault wicked people reject His love.

~~“But if God destroys being, doesn't that mean that he created that which was intended as good and destroyed it? Will hell exist after the Last Day?”~~

Everlasting destruction is what awaits those that chose sin over God. (2 Thessalonians 1:9, Psalms 145:20, Ezekiel 28:19).

~~ “This is why I will write about hell soon. It's a rich and deep topic that needs a lot of attention, just as heaven does.”~~

I took your poll and picked “heaven and hell” ^^. I’m interested in what others believe about hell. Seeing other angles helps me to strengthen my beliefs ^^

~~“You're welcome. I know how difficult it is to write in another language since I'm studying Spanish in Guatemala right now myself.”~~

:D that’s awesome!! Que tengas éxito! ^^ If one day you need help with something in Spanish don’t hesitate to ask me ^^
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:icontesm:
TESM Featured By Owner Jul 25, 2012  Hobbyist Writer

Or C) simply quoting scripture.
Why the term “living soul” should be considered a complexity or something to cause confusion?


You don't have to trust me, but trust me when I say it adds an additional complexity that's not needed at this stage.

How can something perishable be the principle of life?

The breath of life is the ‘principle of life’ but the soul is not the breath of life. The breath of life is the spirit God breathed into us (Genesis 2:7, Genesis 7:22). And when the spirit departs the person dies (Psalm 146:4). The principle of life is the spirit not the soul.


Do we not have immortal souls, bound for life forever with God or separated from Him?

And though it is "God's Spirit" it is not "God within us" or that would be pantehism. God creates out of love but he also creates so that something may be "other" than Him. It is our own soul that we have by the grace of God.


What is the soul for you?


The soul is both us and many things. It is the principle of life, for without the soul ur bodies would wither. It holds the power of the intellect and will for us humans, for only the soul and act and choose in a manner that 1) seeks truth, 2) makes moral decisions, 3) seek God.

Because of sin our bodies decay; there is pain, sickness and death (the list goes on). None of that existed before the fall. That’s how we are degraded; we are no longer pure. We had been “tainted” with sin.

In God’s eyes our degradation doesn’t estimate our worth. Jesus died for us. He believed (and still believes) we were worth it. We are invaluable to Him.


The body is not evil, sin is evil. Our bodies decay as a result of sin, in one sense, but we were created as body and soul. We are not just our souls but the very bodies God ave us. We were not just "souls" or "spirit" before the fall. The body is not sin nor is it the taint of sin.

Our belief in hell differs. I don’t believe it exists right now nor I believe it will exist forever, but I know it will exist.

better be careful how you see it though.

Yes. He doesn’t love them because of hell’s existence or because they exist there, but because He is love (1 John 4:8). It doesn’t matter where we are or what we do, He will still love us. His love is everlasting. It’s not His fault wicked people reject His love.

Perhaps, but it's still very vague.

Everlasting destruction is what awaits those that chose sin over God. (2 Thessalonians 1:9, Psalms 145:20, Ezekiel 28:19).

Still vague as to what it means, though.


Thanks again.
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:iconnilopher:
Nilopher Featured By Owner Jul 25, 2012  Hobbyist General Artist
^^

~~“Do we not have immortal souls, bound for life forever with God or separated from Him?”~~

We also differ on this. I don’t believe souls are immortal, because souls can die (Job 33:22, Leviticus 24:17, Joshua 11:11)

“Neither shall he go in to any dead body(nephesh), nor defile himself for his father, or for his mother;”~ Leviticus 21:11

“And they smote all the souls (nephesh) that were therein with the edge of the sword, utterly destroying them: there was not any left to breathe: and he burnt Hazor with fire.”~Joshua 11:11

~~“And though it is "God's Spirit" it is not "God within us" or that would be pantehism.
God creates out of love but he also creates so that something may be "other" than Him. It is our own soul that we have by the grace of God.”~~


:nod:

~~“The body is not evil, sin is evil. Our bodies decay as a result of sin, in one sense, but we were created as body and soul. We are not just our souls but the very bodies God gave us. We were not just "souls" or "spirit" before the fall. The body is not sin nor is it the taint of sin.”~~

:nod:

~~“better be careful how you see it though.”~~

Why?

Everlasting destruction is what awaits those that chose sin over God. (2 Thessalonians 1:9, Psalms 145:20, Ezekiel 28:19).

~~Still vague as to what it means, though.~~


I know you don’t agree. But I believe they will cease to exist. Their destruction will be everlasting.
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ninJAVONTE Featured By Owner Jun 6, 2012
:iconuchihasasukeplz:.................... :iconbigsmilesasuke-plz:
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Alberthein1 Featured By Owner Jun 1, 2012
Heh, at least I'm glad I'm not the only one thinking these things ^^
Feels good...
(I already wondered if I had to type up something similar myself...)
Though by reading the stuff below, another possibility occurred to me.
Since I always think of many solutions to anything as well as many plausible reasons, I suppose this one could be one.
About the Trinity it is; There is God(papa), Jesus(brotha) and the Spirit(don't know how that fits in the family...). In the said theory, they are all one... of mind. They know everything about oneanother(all thoughts, all doings etc.), but are separate beings. Just as Jesus said, he learns from the father to do the miracles he does. If he "physically" were him, that might've been unnecessary. However, he may be him by shared thought. He was always there with god since the beginning (hence learning of the miracles) and thus, like god made the plants grow us food, he provided the fish and bread for the many on that hill. But when he died, he had to ressurect all on his own. By all fathers teachings, he ressurected on the third day, and then went homewards again.
I believe that Father (as he can do anything) could just "simply forgive us with words", but there would be no impact at all. Neither would his son have had any use.
Just simply forgiving all of us again and taking it like in the past with for one, would simply result in most folks just going back to their lives again. However, sending his son would've not only be a good proof of what his son has learnt over all these years, aeons, quadrilions of years of time, but it would also cause those few eligeble to learn of God by his son, and come to true faith.
That's the strongest boost one could ever give a religion, and it certainly proved with paul and the others.
though do mind - its but a theory :P - I may be wrong...
I do however always wonder what is the evidence that other christians claim to be for them their source for belief. Their motivation, their motor to stick to the one and almighty father that I love so to dedicate my life to.
And because of it, I'd like to ask you... what is you're "pure" reason, specified as far as your mind let it, to believe? Is it the feeling you have, that he exists? Is it, the evidence laid around earth, that the multitude have disregarded and sometimes even destroyed in wicked rage of disbelief? Is it a special ocurrence, or a special someone you made an oath to?
What made you a believer, and what made you stay one?
(though you do not have to answer ^^, I'm just curious.)
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